Tuesday, June 21, 2011

This Is Your Mother Speaking, Nature, Nurture, Boy Howdy !

Pictured is Oreo with her first Newfoundland puppy, it was a learning experience for all of us.  Miss Priss came later,  by then Oreo was an old hand at rowdy dogs. Here, she was trying to bathe him, a good GSD would do that; a good Newfie would bite the tongue that cleaned him:
Why do people say a dog, is a dog, is a dog ?  There were some very good comments made about rehabilitation versus training recently on another blog.  JJ is the author and the title is Dogs And Tails. It made me think about the different solutions people find to get along with the dog in their life. Some people believe that the person must learn how to cope with the dogs dysfunction, and others feel, quite strongly that the dogs came to live with us. Here at Oreo's, we are aiming right down the middle.  If you have a resident dog with newly aquired problems, the answer is to work with the dog, but, how far is to far ? I came upon a wonderful blog post entitled  Lessons From Luke, the author is Layla; it was inspiring and yet, brings up the very concerns I have about todays shelter dogs. Feel free to read it and drop back here, it will clarify what I am going to address.  In Luke's story, the theme throughout the process was adapting to the dog, there was a mention of desensitizing Luke, but never any indication that it worked. The reason is ....taaa daaa, desensitizion will only work on a fairly stable dog with concrete reasons for the reaction.  With that mental set you can offer the dog different experiences  with the same stimuli, when the dog finds out the vet may have hurt once, but not every time, it should push the event further back in it's life.  Again we are talking about a dog with some balance.
  Dogs are more in tune with how we react than the average person thinks.  I am terrified of thunderstorms, survived a couple of tornados years back, but the fear remained. Even though we don't have twisters here, my apprehension lives on,  None of our other creatures reacted to them, until Oreo.  She was so sensitive we had her on sedatives briefly to prevent injury.  None of the traditional treatments worked, because she had nothing on which to base her fear, except my fear.  We bought thunderstorm CD's  , but Oreo wasn't reacting to the noise.....the vet thought maybe barometric pressure, she could feel before we could, never added up.  Her favorite movie was " Babe" ( yes the little pig that could ) and we started putting that on when the skies turned black.  And, we put ME on a "down stay"  It worked, and in a few month's she laid quietly and watched the news with us.  I'm citing this as my personal example of aquired disorders in the home.  The dog has learned to be afraid of something through experience.  In this case I was the leader and I was afraid, therefore reasonable fear.  We are not talking about that.
Dogs such as Luke are far to common, and the  owners caught in the jetstream of their collective disorders, suffer along with the dog.  BSL isn't the answer,  everyone knows a dog who was " perfect" until they weren't.  We use aggression more now than ten years ago, it is not a " catch phrase"  it is an appropriate description fitting many of the dogs adopted out from shelters today.  It does not matter why the dog is aggressive, only if it is. What is happening throughout the sheltering community is the rationalization of unadoptable behavior in this ongoing frenzy of the numbers game. Shelters offer a reason for the dogs aggression (ususally abuse) and then expect the new owner to deal with it.  News Flash, love does not cure aggression.... Nor need we waste anymore time on analyzing a behavior that does not respond to treatment.
" Live release"  should be a red flag  in the sheltering world.  it means nothing.  The dog may be going to the worst hoarder in the state, but it left the shelter "alive"   Live release is the precursor to dangerous dogs on your community playgrounds.  One person commented that an insane asylum for animals  will be next on the horizon.  Been there, done that, we call them No Kill Shelters.
 Forget temperment testing, it misses the unpredictable, idiopathic disorders.  Temperment testing is a tool, it's not the end all..  I have seen to many dogs pass a standard test then go out of control 3 days later.   Know why shelters don't do an " exit interview" anymore ?  most dogs would not pass.  Can the dog be handled, brushed, food dish given or taken, don't make excuses; yes or no ? Please put humane back into animal shelters, and that starts with admitting that some animals are never going to have a quality of life, and will be in and out of shelters forever.  Anybody think that is "humane"  we don't...
Back to Nature vs. Nurture.while Priss was raised by a GSD, she remains a Newfoundland, She has certain characteristics she learned from Oreo,ex:  I was surprised to learn Newf's don't do the play bow, mine learned it from Oreo, I didn't realize it was unusual until I got several comments on a You Tube video we made.  On hikes, Oreo kept an eye on us, the Newfs could care less, just not their nature to herd us. They return to the whistle, but they don't have the protective nature of the GSD.. If a dog is bred to certain  performance standard, they have a purpose, ignoring that purpose is insanity.  I don't see a lot of other breeds making excuses for why the dog does what it was bred to do, we know herding dogs herd, and protection dogs protect; it's a surprise that fighting dogs fight ? Genetics people, if aggression has come upon the animal take it out of the system.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

Do you mmean take them out of the system as in kill them ?

Happy Camper said...

For unpredictable, therefore dangerous dogs, yes I do. Google Tug at Best Friends. What would be your point in keeping alive a dangerous dog that cannot have any interaction safely with another living being ? Life in Solitary Confinement sounds good to you ? That is what a sancutary is to an unpredictable dog you know.

sheldon said...

Did you hear about the pb the Sparks cop had to shoot? I'm not turning this into a tabloid, but there are consequences for putting dangerous dogs out there, and often the dogs pay the price too.
So many of the descriptions on the dogs up for adoption indicate the dog "will warm up" once they know you. The barrier rage is temporary and once they are out they are wonderful. Don't believe it. Also I see they have pits for $5 and the paper is running love you pit, story contest. There are no articles telling you to write in about how much you love your beagle. Hype only prolongs the problem. Way to many pitbulls Oreo and not enough trained homes. Plus I am starting to feel they are taking dogs homes that are more well adjusted.

Anonymous said...

Well spoken, Miss Priss. Oreo is proud of you I'm certain. Which came first the chicken or the egg ? Are the dogs difficult, thus tossed out the door, or tossed out the door and become uncivilized ? My proffessional take is that it's a combination of both. As mentioned with dear Oreo, dogs pick up the behaviors and neurosis of the home. Our return rate has increased as we have lowered our expectations on the adopter. Dogs placed in homes without a fence are often tied out, creating a new set of problems. If the dog going out of shelter is on the edge, most have separation anxiety, being left all day in a crate will aggravate the condition.
It creates learned helplessness. Obviously my new companion was held in a crate, she wanted to go into it, but we decided it was time to face life. We provided the crate in the den, but closed the door. In one week she forgot about that as a solution to her fears.
Becoming more selective of who we adopt to has forced us to be more selective of what we accept in. However,our quality of adoption has gone up. Had we not kept a close watch on our return rate, we could have missed a vital warning sign.
I favor the exit interview idea, nail clip, quick grooming and let the dog have a glimpes of what to expect on the outside. So long as I provided the crate hideout for Velvet, she used that in place of coping. The dog does come to live with us. From a vet's point of view they are happier that way.

Happy Camper said...

Welcome to Velvet, she is lucky to have you. Nurturing neurotic behavior makes it worse, never better. Did you like the picture of Oreo with my brother when he was a baby ? He was a horrid puppy, and getting him neutered was all that saved his pushy little life :) I say that tongue in cheek, but he was very mouthy and sassy. Things were getting to the edge when the vet agreed to alter him at 5 month's insead of six. Talk about raging hormones..
I dislike the juvenile neutering, but think it should be done earlier if there is a chance that the bad behavior is hormone driven. In Burley Dog's case it did the trick. At 5 months and 120 pounds, he was getting the upper hand.
We now are seeing this behavior in neutered dogs who leave home to early, never learned the inhibited bite from Mom, or boundries from littermates. Add to that many are whelped and raised, untouched by human hands and the potential for disaster is high. Looking forward to meeting Velvet the next time you are in Reno.

Anonymous said...

I'm not being antagonistic, but it could look that way. Would you have put your own dog down if the neutering did not fix the problem ?
I have an adopted dog with snappy tendencies. The help desk suggested I learn his triggers. That is not working well, but I do believe in no kill.

Happy Camper said...

Thank you for sharing Anon, pick a moniker and stay awhile. Nobody on here is going to tell you to kill your dog. But, as you are finding out, placating a dog can be like placating a toddler, they don't know what they want so they keep pushing.
I can't fairly answer a question about a hypothetical situation, altering him took care of the problem. I have adopted dogs in the past that were on the euth list for owner aggression. I did my best, but in both cases the owners decision was the correct one. Unpredictable outbursts of aggression are not treatable, therefore it would be unfair to the dog or our community to have pursued my endeavors further. Both were age 3, Old English Sheepdogs several breeders said it was a problem from poor genetics well known within their breeding programs. All they could do was stop breeding the problem dogs. Both dogs 10 years, and two states apart were pts. I no longer try to save dogs the owners have requested be put down. I think the owner knows the dog better than any rescue, but I was superwoman back then :)

Anonymous said...

I am so glad Velvet is working out. I would venture that for every GSD I take there are 4 left behind in a years time. There is a "rescue sickness" going around, it's even hit King County. Healthy dogs are left and emotionaly sick ones taken. This has to serve the need of the rescuer because in the long run it hurts the dogs in general.
I do understand kennel stress, but life is stressful and dogs need to live in the real world. If I can't go in and brush that dog and handle it's feet, it doesn't get pulled by me. Food aggression is a deal breaker too. I am not looking for the perfect dog, I am looking for the dog that stands a chance at permanent placement. I am willing to take my dogs back, but I haven't had a return in 6 years based on behavior. I got two back, both from military families deployed and they were placed quickly. I respect the people who let the dog get on with it's life.

Cole David said...

I checked out both blogs mentioned. JJ is a little to much into sematics for me to follow, but good blog. When people start talking about whether or not a dog that has attacked is "aggressive" or not. Is it better to say the dog is afraid and shows that through aggressive appearing behavior ? That doesn't lighten the impact.
Why are we so afraid of "labeling a breed ?" A lablel can be a defination of that dogs behavior, Why did they get so tied in knots over wording that they lost the message? I read the Dog Trainer post twice trying to get it to say something. Lesson's From Luke was outstanding.. Hidden meanings for aggression I found in articles online.
Resource guarding
Terriorial
Barrier rage
Fear reactive
Possessive of toys
Touch sensitive
If a dog makes an unprovoked attack through normal interaction, that is abnormal behavior. Quit trying to make it sound "average"

freespirit said...

@ Sheldon, Yes I did and it didn't make the papers. That's fine with me. I am tired of people beating up on cops for not getting torn apart by these dogs. Maybe the dogs are not at fault, training or whatever; who cares ? If the dog is a dangerous dog you don't give it counseling in the middle of a call. My brother is a cop back east and he says these dogs are used to intimidate police from getting to the dealers stash. They count on bad publicity for the cop if he shoots the dog. A dog that attacks needs to be put humanely down.

Happy Camper said...

As I sat here posting the comments I realized that Burley was noshing on something. I reached down and pulled the remainder of a bone that had become to small from his mouth. That should be pretty easy to do and not induce fear. If people are being told food aggression is normal we are in deep doo doo. @Cole, the shelters are making excuses for the behavior and laying a guilt trip on the new owners who are tired of living in fear of their new
" family member" that 3 weeks ago was possibly guarding a gang house. Home checks for strong breeds to ensure adequate fencing and no more dogs in motels.
Lets start a new promotion, we could call it RESPONSIBLE RELEASING ...... This stuff of giving the unwanted dogs away
( pitbulls only ) for 5 dollars is a waste of time.

Anonymous said...

I am confused. We have been told that getting near the dogs food dish caused her stress, Stay out of the room until she had left the area of the feeding bowl, then walk in and pick it up in a non-confrontational way. If she comes back to the dish, place it back on the floor and walk away.
This is counter-intuitive to how I thought it should go, but I don't want to make her bite. It's kind of like don't force her hand ?
She had been abused in her other home they said. What is being taught here is the opposite of what the help desk is telling me to do. By the way, they said they didn't want the dog back because it had already been in 3 bad homes and they would have to put it down.

Volunteer said...

Whoa anon, just got the feed. Don't try to take that food dish or you will grow a face full of teeth. You are describing a dog that has NOT been rehabbed and may not be suitable for unskilled owners. In the shelter we handle the animals very carefully, we cannot get bitten and do anygood. That said, at some point the dog has to learn to live with humans in a trusting situation. Ideally that is a foster with experience in assessing the dogs abilities and liabilities.

Happy Camper said...

Thanks volunteer, I was going to address that, but you said it better than I could.
The last thing I want to do on this blog is offer advice on a dog we have never met. We speak in generalities, but you should contact a trainer and see where you stand with that particular dog. It does appear that the dog is wearing the pants in the family and that cannot continue. I'm sure a hands on trainer can give you guidance. Over the years I have come to believe that aggression is just that, if it's not the food dish then it could be another family member. The dog needs guidence, but it must be from a person with training. Ps. by snapping do you mean biting ?

Kirsten said...

@Cole David I enjoyed that blog, and you may want to go back and check some of the newer posts. Dogs and Tails is written with other trainers in mind I think, and might leave a non-trainer a little confused. My take was the writer felt dogs were being labeled dangerous because the owners couldn't read body language.

Kirsten said...

Greta from gretthevetretired? You are right, the dog gets a little out of line, owner puts the dog and back and the problem escalates. I train companion dogs, the calls we get from desparate people who have adopted and 2 or 3 year old dog have skyrocketed. These dogs are so far out there, the owner has to get them rehabbed before we can put them in a class. I am not going to have the risk of dog fights beyond the norm with unpredictable dogs. I'll take a predictable biter over a wall eye any day.